Introduction
Tracie Kretzschmar, MS, ACSM, BLS is someone who each one of the women who co-created everythingreptile.org has a deep respect for. Not only has she devoted a great deal of time helping bearded dragon and reptile owners around the world to care properly for beloved pets, but she continues to push forward striving for better health and education for new and experienced keepers alike. This interview will explain Tracie's extremely important work with Adenovirus and why she created PATS (Pogona Adenovirus Testing Society). Additionally. Tracie is the owner of Bug-de-Lite where one can purchase quality supplements, medications and other excellent products for reptile care as well as utilize her consulting service.
Adenovirus Interview with Tracie Kretschmar
I am grateful for the opportunity given to me by Kelly
Carello to answer some vital questions on Adenovirus as well as to give some
basic information about how I got started with these beautiful souls, the
enchanting bearded dragons.
I was always one to have some type of pet but never had a reptile growing up in Oklahoma. I did see some while in college here and there but never did home any when in school. It wasn't until I had been married for a while, that my husband and I were living in Key West, Florida and fell in love with all of the gorgeous iguanas. Though we didn't have the living space for an iguana, we searched for another type of reptile we did have space for. We went to the local pet store which was owned by a small local couple, to see if they had any reptiles.
Our first male dragon was there waiting for us. I believe he chose me and I fell in love with him at first sight. That was where it all started for me. He is my reason that I continue to try and help reptiles. He fell ill due to a mycobacterium toxin which destroyed his liver and we didn't find out in time to save him. So my mission was to carry his spirit with me to help with all dragons that needed it.
How did you first get involved in Adenovirus testing and research?
I had made some great contacts in which their dragons were very ill and found to have Adenovirus. A lot of them simply did not make it through the ordeal and it broke my heart to see all of that occurring. It is devastating to lose a beloved and precious dragon in the first place but to have to see them undergo the physical suffering for prolonged periods of time is tragic. I also felt compelled to help more with research after Steve Irwin's passing, as he greatly inspired me as he had such a strong passion for reptiles. I just felt I needed to help in some way.
Can Adenovirus spread between different species?
Adenovirus is species specific, thus it will not "jump" species. They could technically pick up a viral cell from another species inadvertently, but it would not affect them and would simply pass through their system. It would pass through, shed out quickly without affecting the host. It is much like them not being affected by our common cold virus if exposed to it.
What species carried the Adenovirus in the highest numbers?
I feel that due to the high incidences of breeding and popularity that the Pogona species carries the greatest risk in numbers of infections than any other reptile at the current time. Other species do carry it such as an isolated case in a Nile crocodile, Monitors and Rankins dragons as well. The avian species such as chickens, turkeys, geese and ducks have shown species specific Adenovirus, but this viral strain could infect quail and pigeons as noted in Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery book. There have also been reported cases in snakes as well.
What is the newest test for Adenovirus, how accurate is it and how much does it cost?
The most up to date test the Polymerase Chain Reaction Test or the PCR test. It is the most accurate and up to 99.99% accuracy rate. The cost is $18 per test so it is very affordable when compared to the other blood DNA tests. I feel that the cost is extremely reasonable for the value that it instills. This test is done in the privacy of your home so it is non-invasive for your dragon, as well. You don't have to take your dragon to the vet for the test as it is easily performed by you, the keeper, at home. It can be done ante mortem or post mortem also. This test is performed by the Research Associates Lab in Dallas, Texas.
How is the Adenovirus spread?
The known route of transmission is fecal to oral route and it is not known to be transmitted through the air thus far, though it is not completely determined. It can be transmitted through the air in some flocks such as chickens or other avian species. The Gastrointestinal tract and liver lesions can suggest the fecal to oral route of transmission currently for reptiles.
What precautions should be taken with an infected dragon around other dragons which are not infected?
When one has a positive living in the same house, the proper handling procedure should be to always wash your hands after handling your positive one before handling your negative one. It is a good idea also to use separate blankets, bathing tubs, tank decor, etc. to help reduce infection and decrease the chances of any cross-contamination. I would also use separate feeding dishes for them, too.
How long can Adenovirus survive outside of the host?
There are no studies which have solely documented the reports for stability of the virus. They are very resistant to extremes in heat, ph and solvents. The variances are 50-60C or 122-140F for heat exposure. It is relatively durable outside of the host so environmental contamination is common such as bedding, litter, feces, food and water.
What are the signs of the Adenovirus in babies?
The most prominent signs in babies tend to be stargazing, seizures and dehydration issues. They often do have repeated bouts of coccidia infections along with secondary immunosuppression problems such as the commonly reported respiratory infection. Sudden death is very common in babies.
I was always one to have some type of pet but never had a reptile growing up in Oklahoma. I did see some while in college here and there but never did home any when in school. It wasn't until I had been married for a while, that my husband and I were living in Key West, Florida and fell in love with all of the gorgeous iguanas. Though we didn't have the living space for an iguana, we searched for another type of reptile we did have space for. We went to the local pet store which was owned by a small local couple, to see if they had any reptiles.
Our first male dragon was there waiting for us. I believe he chose me and I fell in love with him at first sight. That was where it all started for me. He is my reason that I continue to try and help reptiles. He fell ill due to a mycobacterium toxin which destroyed his liver and we didn't find out in time to save him. So my mission was to carry his spirit with me to help with all dragons that needed it.
How did you first get involved in Adenovirus testing and research?
I had made some great contacts in which their dragons were very ill and found to have Adenovirus. A lot of them simply did not make it through the ordeal and it broke my heart to see all of that occurring. It is devastating to lose a beloved and precious dragon in the first place but to have to see them undergo the physical suffering for prolonged periods of time is tragic. I also felt compelled to help more with research after Steve Irwin's passing, as he greatly inspired me as he had such a strong passion for reptiles. I just felt I needed to help in some way.
Can Adenovirus spread between different species?
Adenovirus is species specific, thus it will not "jump" species. They could technically pick up a viral cell from another species inadvertently, but it would not affect them and would simply pass through their system. It would pass through, shed out quickly without affecting the host. It is much like them not being affected by our common cold virus if exposed to it.
What species carried the Adenovirus in the highest numbers?
I feel that due to the high incidences of breeding and popularity that the Pogona species carries the greatest risk in numbers of infections than any other reptile at the current time. Other species do carry it such as an isolated case in a Nile crocodile, Monitors and Rankins dragons as well. The avian species such as chickens, turkeys, geese and ducks have shown species specific Adenovirus, but this viral strain could infect quail and pigeons as noted in Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery book. There have also been reported cases in snakes as well.
What is the newest test for Adenovirus, how accurate is it and how much does it cost?
The most up to date test the Polymerase Chain Reaction Test or the PCR test. It is the most accurate and up to 99.99% accuracy rate. The cost is $18 per test so it is very affordable when compared to the other blood DNA tests. I feel that the cost is extremely reasonable for the value that it instills. This test is done in the privacy of your home so it is non-invasive for your dragon, as well. You don't have to take your dragon to the vet for the test as it is easily performed by you, the keeper, at home. It can be done ante mortem or post mortem also. This test is performed by the Research Associates Lab in Dallas, Texas.
How is the Adenovirus spread?
The known route of transmission is fecal to oral route and it is not known to be transmitted through the air thus far, though it is not completely determined. It can be transmitted through the air in some flocks such as chickens or other avian species. The Gastrointestinal tract and liver lesions can suggest the fecal to oral route of transmission currently for reptiles.
What precautions should be taken with an infected dragon around other dragons which are not infected?
When one has a positive living in the same house, the proper handling procedure should be to always wash your hands after handling your positive one before handling your negative one. It is a good idea also to use separate blankets, bathing tubs, tank decor, etc. to help reduce infection and decrease the chances of any cross-contamination. I would also use separate feeding dishes for them, too.
How long can Adenovirus survive outside of the host?
There are no studies which have solely documented the reports for stability of the virus. They are very resistant to extremes in heat, ph and solvents. The variances are 50-60C or 122-140F for heat exposure. It is relatively durable outside of the host so environmental contamination is common such as bedding, litter, feces, food and water.
What are the signs of the Adenovirus in babies?
The most prominent signs in babies tend to be stargazing, seizures and dehydration issues. They often do have repeated bouts of coccidia infections along with secondary immunosuppression problems such as the commonly reported respiratory infection. Sudden death is very common in babies.
What are the signs of the Adenovirus in adults?
The most commonly seen symptoms in adults tend to be calcium deficiency problems as well as mouth/gum issues along with swellings. Aspergillus has been a frequently found fungus in the mouth too which tends to lead to chronic respiratory infections. Adults can also have frequent, recurring bouts of coccidia, also which cause other nutritional problems.
What type of treatments or supplements are there for dragons who test positive for Adenovirus?
There are currently no conventional treatments per say that most vets tend to use. Antibiotics are used to treat the respiratory infections, as well as antimicrobial agents that help with secondary type of infections. Gentamicin is used topically or as an oral antibiotic in some cases, also. Some great supplements I have found to be very effective in helping with the immune system and overall health are Bee Pollen, Brewer's Yeast, Milk Thistle, Serrapeptase, and Colloidal Silver, They are all very safe to use for long term. I believe that they respond much better to natural treatments than traditional medications quite often. We need to continue to strive forward to find alternative treatments to help with immune support instead of using harsh medications which have a negative effect on the liver which is already taxed from the virus itself.
Are there very many people testing for Adenovirus?
Actually, there have been quite a few independent hobbyists and keepers doing testing. As problems arise with their dragons, they search for answers which prompt them to test when they find enough information. It helps to find answers and solutions for them so that they can better treat their dragons. At least it can help with the process of elimination of either their husbandry or the virus.
Are many breeders testing for Adenovirus and if not, why do you think they aren't testing?
There are not very many breeders doing any testing currently that I am aware of. I do know that some have tested in the past with the older Electron Microscope testing but that has been awhile now. I am not sure if many have started up with their testing again though. I feel that they don't place the value on testing right now as they believe that the majority of dragons, if not all of them, are already infected with the Adenovirus. I have found that not to be true however, so I feel that it is highly valuable to test. I, as well as numerous vets, do not recommend dragons that are positive should be bred.
A lot of people say that there isn't enough information to worry about testing, so what are the facts in regards to research and studies?
There is some truth to not having very many resources or studies for research on Adenovirus. Some are older or possibly outdated a little bit, too. However, there have been some studies done in the past by Dr. Elliott Jacobson and Dr. Daniel Wentz. It is an extremely time consuming feat and project that takes a lot of money and resources as well. Unfortunately, reptiles are lower on the list for funds for any type of research, well below mammals and livestock. I am most interested in long term studies to determine if a dragon is ever able to shed the virus at all, or if it harbors it and sheds it intermittently throughout its' life cycle. I am trying to find a connection as to what causes this virus, as well. We can't find answers or gather data, if no one will test!
What do you feel the future holds for bearded dragons if people do not begin testing for Adenovirus?
I believe that adenovirus tends to weaken the immune system, causing secondary immunosuppression types of symptoms, too. It will gradually decrease the overall hardiness of this species' genetics. The life span will undoubtedly be affected, for a long time. I feel if this is not reversed, that the genetics will continue to decline and their health will not be optimal. It really should not be a hard decision to make as to whether or not to test if you are going to be breeding.
Can Adenovirus be detected after one test of a dragon or are multiple or repeated tests needed?
Adenovirus is normally detected after the initial test. However, there are some cases in which a dragon is shedding very low levels that may not register. That is why re-testing is recommended every 90 days, for a successive 3 tests. If after 3 tests they are negative, then they can be deemed negative. This is assuming the dragon has not been exposed to the virus in the quarantine period. There have not been any evidence of positives reverting to a negative status as of yet. This information has been relayed to me by Ernie Collaizzi, at the lab. False positives are not a real common occurrence.
What type of disinfectants are recommended to clean items that might be shared between dragons such as tubs or cloths/linens, etc.? What actually kills the virus?
The most commonly used disinfectant is Clorox bleach. A dilution ratio of 1 cup of bleach to 1 gallon of water is acceptable. I highly caution the use of bleach with any items used in the tank, especially the more porous items. Great care needs to be taken when using it as the fumes can be toxic especially when heated up. Everything needs to be thoroughly rinsed before replacing back into the tank. It is not recommended to use bleach on porous materials however, as it can settle in crevices. Formalin, aldehydes and iodophors are very strong chemicals and thus should not be used. A steamer can be used with success to kill Adeno. The required temperatures are a range of 122-140F for at least 10-15 minutes will kill the spores.
Are there any websites you recommend for keepers to research and to better understand Adenovirus?
I recommend the Reptile Channel which tends to have articles intermittently on the Adenovirus printed on line to read. Also, the Anapsid.org has a good compilation of Adenovirus as well. Some of the veterinary dictionaries and research books tend to have some information on this virus too online. The Merck Veterinary manual online has some very good information too and up to date.
After initial exposure to Adenovirus, do you know how long a newly exposed dragon would need between exposure and testing to show an accurate test result?
The incubation period in chickens is considered to be 24-48 hours. The rate of spreading throughout an entire flock is relatively slow, as reported in the Reptile Medicine and Surgery book by Mader. For reptiles it may take 7-14 days to see signs of infection. After 30 days, an accurate test can be done and then every 90 days, for up to 3 tests. A six month quarantine is suggested, also.
Can Adenovirus be present on feeders, as in on their legs, etc. and be transmitted in that manner?
Technically, feeders won’t carry the Adenovirus internally but could inadvertently pick up particles/cells by running through infected feces or other matter. Though I have never seen it documented in which any feeders were carrying the Adenovirus. They are known to carry pinworms though. This is one reason to avoid letting the feeders/insects roam around in the tank. It is critical to keep everything immaculate on a routine basis but even more so if a reptile has Adenovirus.
In conclusion, I hope that this information helps to answer some of your questions regarding Adenovirus as it can be difficult to find accurate information. I hope that as a whole, we continue to strive to improve the lives of bearded dragons and find a middle ground for carrying on the healthier genetics. We have brought them here into our captivity and it is our responsibility to breed with care and honor nature as it was meant to be treated, with respect. I fear that in a lot of ways we have failed them so I hope that somehow we can make things right again, in the future. The species is depending on us.
The most commonly seen symptoms in adults tend to be calcium deficiency problems as well as mouth/gum issues along with swellings. Aspergillus has been a frequently found fungus in the mouth too which tends to lead to chronic respiratory infections. Adults can also have frequent, recurring bouts of coccidia, also which cause other nutritional problems.
What type of treatments or supplements are there for dragons who test positive for Adenovirus?
There are currently no conventional treatments per say that most vets tend to use. Antibiotics are used to treat the respiratory infections, as well as antimicrobial agents that help with secondary type of infections. Gentamicin is used topically or as an oral antibiotic in some cases, also. Some great supplements I have found to be very effective in helping with the immune system and overall health are Bee Pollen, Brewer's Yeast, Milk Thistle, Serrapeptase, and Colloidal Silver, They are all very safe to use for long term. I believe that they respond much better to natural treatments than traditional medications quite often. We need to continue to strive forward to find alternative treatments to help with immune support instead of using harsh medications which have a negative effect on the liver which is already taxed from the virus itself.
Are there very many people testing for Adenovirus?
Actually, there have been quite a few independent hobbyists and keepers doing testing. As problems arise with their dragons, they search for answers which prompt them to test when they find enough information. It helps to find answers and solutions for them so that they can better treat their dragons. At least it can help with the process of elimination of either their husbandry or the virus.
Are many breeders testing for Adenovirus and if not, why do you think they aren't testing?
There are not very many breeders doing any testing currently that I am aware of. I do know that some have tested in the past with the older Electron Microscope testing but that has been awhile now. I am not sure if many have started up with their testing again though. I feel that they don't place the value on testing right now as they believe that the majority of dragons, if not all of them, are already infected with the Adenovirus. I have found that not to be true however, so I feel that it is highly valuable to test. I, as well as numerous vets, do not recommend dragons that are positive should be bred.
A lot of people say that there isn't enough information to worry about testing, so what are the facts in regards to research and studies?
There is some truth to not having very many resources or studies for research on Adenovirus. Some are older or possibly outdated a little bit, too. However, there have been some studies done in the past by Dr. Elliott Jacobson and Dr. Daniel Wentz. It is an extremely time consuming feat and project that takes a lot of money and resources as well. Unfortunately, reptiles are lower on the list for funds for any type of research, well below mammals and livestock. I am most interested in long term studies to determine if a dragon is ever able to shed the virus at all, or if it harbors it and sheds it intermittently throughout its' life cycle. I am trying to find a connection as to what causes this virus, as well. We can't find answers or gather data, if no one will test!
What do you feel the future holds for bearded dragons if people do not begin testing for Adenovirus?
I believe that adenovirus tends to weaken the immune system, causing secondary immunosuppression types of symptoms, too. It will gradually decrease the overall hardiness of this species' genetics. The life span will undoubtedly be affected, for a long time. I feel if this is not reversed, that the genetics will continue to decline and their health will not be optimal. It really should not be a hard decision to make as to whether or not to test if you are going to be breeding.
Can Adenovirus be detected after one test of a dragon or are multiple or repeated tests needed?
Adenovirus is normally detected after the initial test. However, there are some cases in which a dragon is shedding very low levels that may not register. That is why re-testing is recommended every 90 days, for a successive 3 tests. If after 3 tests they are negative, then they can be deemed negative. This is assuming the dragon has not been exposed to the virus in the quarantine period. There have not been any evidence of positives reverting to a negative status as of yet. This information has been relayed to me by Ernie Collaizzi, at the lab. False positives are not a real common occurrence.
What type of disinfectants are recommended to clean items that might be shared between dragons such as tubs or cloths/linens, etc.? What actually kills the virus?
The most commonly used disinfectant is Clorox bleach. A dilution ratio of 1 cup of bleach to 1 gallon of water is acceptable. I highly caution the use of bleach with any items used in the tank, especially the more porous items. Great care needs to be taken when using it as the fumes can be toxic especially when heated up. Everything needs to be thoroughly rinsed before replacing back into the tank. It is not recommended to use bleach on porous materials however, as it can settle in crevices. Formalin, aldehydes and iodophors are very strong chemicals and thus should not be used. A steamer can be used with success to kill Adeno. The required temperatures are a range of 122-140F for at least 10-15 minutes will kill the spores.
Are there any websites you recommend for keepers to research and to better understand Adenovirus?
I recommend the Reptile Channel which tends to have articles intermittently on the Adenovirus printed on line to read. Also, the Anapsid.org has a good compilation of Adenovirus as well. Some of the veterinary dictionaries and research books tend to have some information on this virus too online. The Merck Veterinary manual online has some very good information too and up to date.
After initial exposure to Adenovirus, do you know how long a newly exposed dragon would need between exposure and testing to show an accurate test result?
The incubation period in chickens is considered to be 24-48 hours. The rate of spreading throughout an entire flock is relatively slow, as reported in the Reptile Medicine and Surgery book by Mader. For reptiles it may take 7-14 days to see signs of infection. After 30 days, an accurate test can be done and then every 90 days, for up to 3 tests. A six month quarantine is suggested, also.
Can Adenovirus be present on feeders, as in on their legs, etc. and be transmitted in that manner?
Technically, feeders won’t carry the Adenovirus internally but could inadvertently pick up particles/cells by running through infected feces or other matter. Though I have never seen it documented in which any feeders were carrying the Adenovirus. They are known to carry pinworms though. This is one reason to avoid letting the feeders/insects roam around in the tank. It is critical to keep everything immaculate on a routine basis but even more so if a reptile has Adenovirus.
In conclusion, I hope that this information helps to answer some of your questions regarding Adenovirus as it can be difficult to find accurate information. I hope that as a whole, we continue to strive to improve the lives of bearded dragons and find a middle ground for carrying on the healthier genetics. We have brought them here into our captivity and it is our responsibility to breed with care and honor nature as it was meant to be treated, with respect. I fear that in a lot of ways we have failed them so I hope that somehow we can make things right again, in the future. The species is depending on us.
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Supplements commonly given to adeno positive dragons.